In this episode of NINTH & G, DC Public Library Adult Services Coordinator, David Quick speaks with an outgoing Urban Libraries Council President and CEO, Susan Benton and DC Public Library Executive Director, Richard Reyes-Gavilan.
Podcast Intro 0:00
DC Public Library podcast is made possible in part by the Institute of Museum and Library Services and is a production of the labs at DC Public Library.
David 0:10
You're listening to the DC Public Library podcast recorded in the grand Reading Room and the historic modernized Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial Library in downtown Washington DC, this is Ninth & G. Hello, I'm your host, David quick, the adult services coordinator at the DC Public Library. Today we are talking to Susan Benton, President and CEO of the Urban Libraries Council, and rich array SC Avalon director of the DC Public Library, Susan and Rich, thanks for joining us again for the podcast.
Susan 0:40
Nice to be with you.
RR 0:41
Thanks, David.
David 0:42
Susan, we're particularly glad to have you here as you look toward your next adventure after the Urban Libraries so that we can sit and talk to you about ULC and your time and the things we've done together with DCPL and Urban Libraries Council. So we actually did exactly this conversation two years ago to the day just as the world was going through a big change around the pandemic. So this is fun to do a true two year recap of what we do together.
Susan 1:13
What's happened in two years,
David 1:17
Like two years ago, Susan, I'll ask you to just start by telling us about the Urban Libraries Council and what what you all do over there.
Susan 1:23
Yeah, well, it's, it's wonderful to be in this historic building. And you will see has some history, where actually this year's celebrating our 50th anniversary, which is really exciting. So the Urban Libraries Council brings together the leading public libraries in the United States and Canada. And our real focus is the richness of a public library and the nimbleness and many facets of a public library, and the way that they serve the public. And that's individuals but also the city in which they live. We're in this wonderful building here, that ninth and G. But Vichy Public Library's in the neighborhoods across the city. So we live where our residents live, we live where our neighbors live, and our ability to touch people, and to interact with people in real ways, is a marvelous opportunities. It's a great profession to be in, and it's as Washington DC as my hometown. It's been just great rich to see the evolution of the DC Public Library, particularly during your tenure. It's it's been wonderful to see what's happening across the city.
David 2:40
Rich, do you want to say anything about kind of DCPL engagement, and particularly some of the things you've done with urban Library Council?
RR 2:47
Sure. And I should maybe start off because this is a great opportunity, as you pointed out, David, with Susan leaving, you know, I've been here now eight years. Most of my time here, I've been on the ULC board. And just on a personal note, I've got to say that Susan, you are one of my favorite people in the world. And you could not be a better friend, a better colleague, a better support system. And honestly, I think a lot of us get into libraries. Not just because we love books, or we love helping people, but we love just, you know, the values that our colleagues have, because they match our own. And, and I'll start off with that, that, that ULC wouldn't be what it is without the the amazing qualities that you bring to it not just intelligence, but warmth and goodness. And so we're, we are so sorry to see you the but also excited to, to follow you on your next adventure. You know, I'll say just generally as a ULC member, not not as a board member. It is it is so wonderful to have this, this group of thinkers, right, that, that act almost as if they're your they're on your staff in some ways, constantly talking about ideas, pushing the envelope in terms of services, working through real challenging problems, and we can talk about the pandemic, I'm sure quite a bit during the podcast. But what I've always found most beneficial about ULC whether it's the staff or the membership, is that it's just an ongoing sounding board for the decisions that we make, whether they're the right ones, whether they're the wrong ones. It's it's an I feel so incredibly empowered and lucky as a library director to have people who experience my problems, but also give me advice and just on an ongoing almost daily basis. So that for me and I think for so many of the 170 or so ULC members, that is really like the core of what you will See can do. And then we can start going into all the wonderful initiatives that ULC pushes, whether it's, you know, the library card challenge from 2015, or all the great things that you'll want to talk about. So, you know, membership, as they say, has its privileges, and I don't think DC Public Library would be what it is. Without ULC. David, you've been leading the entrepreneurship work with some of our partners here in the city, like the Department of small and local businesses, and a lot of that came from, you know, nuggets that ULC would put together either with funding from like the Kauffman Foundation. And so it's that USC has just been a wonderful catalyst that pushes DCPL and other library systems around the country to think about ways, new ways in which we can deliver services. And that's been just wonderful.
David 5:53
Yes, I agree. We're going to talk about some of those specific projects. One thing I was thinking about, though, as I was preparing for this is it reminded me that ULC, is described as an action and innovation in action tank rather than think tank, which means you can't walk down the street without bumping into a think tank. How did you see come to have that particular description of itself?
Susan 6:16
Yeah, well, I think Rich, you supplied part of the answer. And it is a group of leaders who are coming together to think about what's going on in our cities and our counties? What's going on in our society? And what are the what are the systems that have been in place for decades, that, frankly, aren't serving us anymore? And how can we think about coming at new ways at addressing some of the challenges that we're all facing? So we're thinking a lot about that? And how can, how can we adapt ourselves and make small and big changes, and then take action on it. It's wonderful to think about things, but unless you're actually trying some things out, and not everything's going to work, but allow ourselves to that, tried some things out, learn something, and then go at it again. And I think that's the that's the action part. And, you know, what we're really lucky is we've got a lot of libraries, who are quick to hold up their hand when we say, Hey, is anyone interested in trying something else coming, coming together and thinking it's a small group, and then trying some things with one another? And David, I mean, you know, your participation on the ULC entrepreneur cohort, has been fantastic. I mean, you along with 11, other libraries, significant libraries, both in the US and Canada, learning from one another. But how do we sharpen our excuse me, our, our work, the way we come at our work and how we think about reaching out to entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs that don't have ready network, people who aren't graduating from Georgetown, but folks who are living in our neighborhoods have great ideas, aspirations, dreams of things that they might do. And how do they turn that into reality? Well, if you don't have a set of professors, and, you know, a fraternity or sorority brothers, if you can, you know, be touching base with, you don't know where to start. But walking into your neighborhood library, walking into this library, and starting a conversation with your great staff. They find their way. Absolutely.
RR 8:35
Susan, can you talk a little bit? I'll play host for a second, sir, just about just the evolution of ULC. Since you came on board, I think this is a great time for you to reflect a little bit because I'll say, you know, going back a little bit more than a decade, I would never have talked about ULC in the terms that we talked about it now. And you know, all of all, organizations evolve, right? Yeah. But you know, I'll say it was a much more when I first became involved in ULC, when I was much younger, in Brooklyn. They're just the the activity level wasn't there from ULC. In some ways, it was like, Okay, well, you know, we're paying dues, because this is the right thing to do. And I'll see my colleagues had a ULC function. And then you came on board and things started really changing and become more challenging, I think you'll see started asking more of its members. And I think that's been a great thing. So I'd love to hear just your thoughts on the evolution of USC, I'm sure you've been given it some thinking as you as you prepare your exit.
Susan 9:37
Yeah. You know, I think it was just a wonderful kind of karma that came together. Actually, I think, like, when I came to you, I think libraries were already beginning to think about themselves in a in a in a different way than they had in the past. has not thinking of themselves as buildings and unto themselves with books, but starting to think about themselves in a more expansive way, and how did they fit into their community? So I think those conversations were beginning them. And at the same time, the Great Recession occurred. And I actually was, it was an interesting time to come in, because my background is not a librarian, but working with cities, and counties, my entire professional career, working in the public sector, which I love. And working with mayors, city managers, county, elected and appointed officials talk about what are the strategic issues that we're facing. And there was a lot of wonderful things lined up, I ended up accepting the job that you will see, but it's 2009. And I'm just living leaving city government. And I'm seeing how budgets are having to be cut because of the recession. And looking at how, across the board, library budgets, when they were part of a city were being dramatically more cut than other departments create across the city. And I started calling some of my friends and colleagues from like my prior professional and life and said, Hey, what's going on here. And what I heard was, well, libraries are nice to have, but they're not essential. But Rich, you know, this, David, you know, this, during the recession, during any kind of crisis. And frankly, everyday people are coming to our libraries with intention to use us. And when I was just starting in 2009, and beginning to visit folks like you at that point, you are Brooklyn, and across the country, if I were coming into the library earlier just was as it was opening, I was sometimes kind of elbowing and squeezing my way through 40 or 50, people who are at the door of the library, waiting to get in, because they had to use some of the resources in the library. So that was going on. You all were understanding the real critical role you are playing in workforce development in supporting families at that point in time. And then I just had some ideas about how we might crystallize and build on some of the things that you will, you will we're already beginning to to do. So I just planted a couple more seeds.
RR 12:40
I will say, Susan, I think you should take a little bit more credit. And one of the things that I love about the ULC sort of evolution is that you, at least from my perspective, took a lot of the leaders out of this sort of self congratulatory echo chamber that existed in so many of the library discussions. Were the center of our community, everyone loves swag, great, all these terrific things. And you're like, Guess what I just came from, like the the US Conference of Mayors. And they don't think that about you. And you're not that. So you better start thinking about how you become that and not just thinking you're that? Yeah, and now it's something that you've been really, you've been sort of needling libraries for 10 years, about, you know, saying, Look, you know, don't just talk to your colleagues in libraries, but talk to your colleagues in the mayor's office and talk to other people and find out exactly what they think about you before you start taking your own victory lap. So that's something I think I've always appreciated about your work. Yeah.
Susan 13:41
Well, thank you. You know, my, my fantasy is being at the US Conference of Mayors constantly depressing it is it is, but it gets better, I promise you it gets better. The fantasy is that I'm in a circle of mayors and they start talking about their libraries. And one is trying to out rag, the other about what their library is doing. Making sure that they know about what their libraries are doing. And they understand how directly their library is impacting their priorities, their priorities on education.
RR 14:15
And, you know, you see that more and more now, right from San Francisco to DC, whether it's our own Mayor Bowser or, you know, Mayor breed, they're always talking about the work that the libraries are doing. And we're seeing that and frankly, how we've been funded. Yeah, you know, back in 2009, we were just, oh, boy, it was horrible. But it wow, it's just, you know, I'm kind of saying it's a lot easier than it was to convince our elected officials that that we are deserving of funding for whether it's, you know, bricks and mortar or steel and glass or or or, you know, bodies for all these great services.
Susan 14:51
Yeah. It's money well spent. You know, one of the, one of the conversations I had had when I was leaving local government and coming to libraries. A county manager that had done a lot of work with in Florida called me up and said, Susan, I'm really sorry to see you go from our field. But I have to tell you, I'm really excited to see you work in public libraries. Because where I sit in my county administration building, I, I look out about a mile, and I can see the county jail. And what I know is in that county jail, I've got a family, I've got a grandfather, a father and the son, three generations, and the common denominator is that none of them are terribly literate, and then don't have an opportunity to productively participate in the economy. And so they find other ways to do so. And they would so much more, rather invest in the library, than invest in the jail than invest in criminal justice, I want that jail to be empty. And I think, in so many areas of public library can intercede and, and make differences. And I think certainly, there is that.
Unknown Speaker 16:15
Which is a good segue to make sure we can talk about some of the new projects that you will see and some of the things that you've focused your leadership on, including the entrepreneurship cohort, which I've had the pleasure to work on, and you've said much about it. But that's been a real gift to me in my role here in terms of being able to listen to people from other public libraries around the country talking about how they do it, and with a focus on reaching those hard to reach communities or those underserved communities, who may not have a lot of access to the resources that entrepreneurs and yeah, we've tried to focus our work on justice involved in returning citizens at DCPL. And made some good headway with that. But certainly, because of the cohort, thought about where we fit in the ecosystem, that word comes up a lot at these meetings, and who the other players are, and how we can strengthen those relationships. And that's certainly given us the capacity to serve all kinds of entrepreneurs here in DC. Yeah, would you say? What else would you say about that particular?
Susan 17:14
Well, you know, and, you know, you talked about the ecosystem, yeah, the entrepreneur or small business ecosystem, we have, we have a set of resources that we can bring to the table. But David, you and I were talking earlier about who some of the partners are other people who are working with entrepreneurs and small businesses, throughout Washington, DC, and how this can be a place where they can come in and do some of their work as well. And so I'd say that it's eco, you know, capital letters system, these systems that we can bring together that haven't worked together in the past is really, really powerful. You know, I, I just, you know, again, I look at many of the challenges that we're facing in so many areas of our life, and coming at these as individual institutions just cannot work anymore. And we have to be able to kind of look outside and identify like minded people and organizations who say, let's, let's talk, let's come together and do some things. You know, I think one of the things that I am most professionally proud of having worked during this time at ULC, was bringing together mayors and, and library executives in school superintendents, to talk together for the first time in our nation's history, together, working together to get a library card into the hands of every child in their city. Now, that seems like such a natural thing. Of course, of course, mares want their children to be well educated. Of course, every library director wants every child in the city to have a library card. But we don't have. We don't touch every child. We don't have access to every child, public schools do. But we hadn't had that relationship with our school superintendents. And, you know, to be sure our school superintendent has been under a lot of fire over the last 10 to 15 years. And they've gotten burned by partners who have said, Oh, we want to come in and do good and not really. So it's been hard to make those connections. And we were just we had a window of opportunity when President Obama was in the White House who said, we'd like to do something that might help mice, we're working on the Connect Ed initiative, bring libraries into that discussion. And we said we've got an idea because we thought, well, we can use a wonderful, you know, imprimatur of the White House and say, Hey, Mr. or Mrs. Mayor, would you like to be part of this initiative we hope to get 30 jurisdictions, so it's firing up, we got 60 like that.
RR 20:04
It was a lot of muscle there. I mean, yeah. Prior to the White House Library Card challenge, you know, libraries had been talking about how do we automate this process by getting kids library cards? I'm not sure it hadn't been done before. But so many of my colleagues had talked about the frustration that they had, like, oh, you know, there's a turnover at the at the superintendent's office or the chancellor's office, and just, you know, oh, that's a nice idea. But just the the will wasn't there. But once that convening took place, right, it was like, you know, it was like, This is not a nice to do, this is something that you've got to do. Yeah, and it was, you know, and it was so great, you know, I was working at the time with, with Chancellor Henderson here, and our great state superintendent at the time, Huntsville, Kang, and our chief technology officer, you know, it was just like, like that, and all of a sudden, we've got automated library accounts, based on the what we have the DC one card here, which is the picture if we're using it much any longer, but it's the,
David 21:09
it's changed a little bit over Yeah, for the the unique
RR 21:11
student account, which gives kids access,
Susan 21:14
yeah, and of course, it will change but that ability not to have that partnership with the school, the mayor, understanding the importance of that partnership, and, and supporting it, and then going on to park to partner on other things. You know, I think that's been the exciting thing, too. I mean, we wanted for sure, to make sure and cities across the United States that children had library cards in cities. But we also through that initial success, and working to do that, and accomplishing that, that the conversations would expand, and that there will be other things that schools and libraries will begin to partner on. And that is exactly what's happened. You know, it's exciting to see schools and libraries working together on STEM. And, and summer learning, and tutoring and, you know, are knowing what the curriculum of our school system and helps us make sure we're resourcing our shells appropriately, and that we're planning, programming that can be complimentary to what's going on to the school going on in the schools. It, it really brings us together on behalf of our children, all of our children. And that's, that makes us more, more powerful. In the way we're more impactful in the way we're working with kids when we're working together.
David 22:43
Couple other things that we know are coming up that you'll see and that you've worked on are, I'd love to hear you say a little bit about the calculator in the business value calculator, but also edge as a tool for kind of thinking about outcomes and results that come from our work. And so please, please talk about those parts of VOCs work?
Susan 23:04
Well, let's go to the business value calculator first, because we've been talking about entrepreneurship, and the role that we can play. Working with entrepreneurs and small businesses, we we do a lot of work. And we have been building our own expertise, and thinking about how we work with entrepreneurs and small businesses. And and David, you know, this, our target audience have been those individuals who don't have that ready network. So it's people returning from the justice system. It's women, it's people of color, it's immigrants, maybe veterans, how can we reach that audience? And then when we do, what are the things that we're doing to support them? Well, for sure, we've got a lot of resources. I mean, we're looking at some of the resources right now, in this room. We have very sophisticated databases, that the library plays pays a lot of money for the city pays a lot of money for, they're incredibly valuable for a business that's getting started or growing, marketing information, all sorts of information, you'd never be able to find anyplace but the public library. So we've got resources like that we've got smart staff, who have skills, who will sit one on one and talk with a emerging entrepreneur, or connect them with others. So there's consultations that are organized, some of them we do. Some of them we have partners coming in from the outside to provide. We've got technology and equipment that people won't have in their in their office or their home office. And then frankly, we have space that people use. Sometimes we have co working space that people use and it's at no cost and we've got convenience all of that Were we as a city, we're paying for it. But what is the cost of that? What would the cost be? If an entrepreneur were going out and having to pay for that? So with the help of one of our other great ULC member libraries that St. Louis County Public Library, she was Jennifer Gibson was struggling to kind of put together a spreadsheet on that. And we said, well, let's we expanded that, and looked at it in a more holistic way. And put it on a technology platform, could we calculate over a period of time? What's What are those services? What's the value of those services, we put together a full methodology guide, so that it was clear on how we had identified that the numbers, we were attaching the average costs for a consultation, and then putting in all the data of a library and what they've done during the year, what, what was the cost of all of that? Well, in many of our libraries, it was kind of an aha moment, we didn't even know what we'd been doing. So in some of our libraries, even during 2021, when many of our facilities had to be closed, even the online services that we are providing the telephone consultations, the whole the whole body of work for some of our jurisdictions, well over $100 million worth of programs and services that we'd provided to the business community, and in some cases, significantly more than $100 million in one year period of time, as a direct benefit to our local economy.
David 26:43
And that's certainly, you know, even anecdotally, if you work in the library and work around these services, you know, if you start putting people in touch with some of these databases that they don't know, they have access to a library card that you can pay, you can pay for it, you can whip out your credit card and pay for it. But yeah, you know, there's some of them that when they realize they have access to it at no cost with their library card, you know, you just you see the light bulb go off in their head and the appreciation for being able to save money for some really great resources. Yeah.
Susan 27:11
So I actually have a personal story about this. I was in Kansas City, and I was visiting with the Kansas City Public Library, and the Kauffman Foundation was located in Kansas City us about filing this some of this work. And I was getting, as we all do an Uber out to the airport, after the conversations that I've had with the city, and a wonderful African gentleman pick me up and we apologize for not having perfect English. It was really quite wonderful English. But we had a wonderful conversation about why I'd been in Kansas City. And he said, You know, I have a dream about starting a business. And I said, Well, you've got two wonderful libraries here to go to the Kansas City Public Library in the mid continent Public Library. And I gave him my card, and I said, You've got my email now, you send me your email, and I'll put you in touch with your colleagues, David in Kansas City Public Libraries of midcontinent. And I did. And last April, I got an email from him, saying, you may not remember me, Miss Benton, but you connected me to the library and what they're doing. And he has a mobile car detailing service. So he bought a van and it's all kitted out, and he can come to our homes. And if we have a car, he can completely clean and detail our cards for us. So, you know, that's the essence of what was done in Kansas City for the immigrant.
David 28:52
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I keep coming back to it. But those gatherings with those other libraries, it's the the opportunity just hear from those other libraries, who are all all scales, in terms of size and branches and things like that. But some of them just do some really amazing things that have really helped me to do my job and certainly Kansas City and mid continent when the continent does. Morgan Perry over there, it's it's something else. Yeah, what they're doing. Fun to watch. Toledo, Baltimore County this really, really good stuff. Another tool is Edge, which is going to kind of have a new Yasha to it.
Susan 29:33
Yes, yes. Yes. So so let me just say that, over the course of American history, we have had that tremendous benefit of having visionaries, who thought about public libraries that read kind of might initially think Ha, a railroad and the steel tycoon Andrew Carnegie, who came to the country as an immigrant not educated, but through the kindness of strangers, borrowed books and learned and became one of the biggest capitalists of the United States and decided to help build libraries, public libraries, including one here in Washington, DC. So that was, you know, the end of the 19th century, the beginning of the 20th century. Our version of that in the 20th 21st century is Bill and Melinda Gates, and their understanding the importance of public libraries, and also understanding the the transformation that was occurring in our society, as we became more technology dependent and adapt, and recognizing that there's content that we will be gaming through technology, and there's important access libraries or bad access libraries about content. And there were some need to have technology in public libraries that the public could use. Certainly, we've got lots of technology behind the scenes that are supporting our operations. But we needed, we needed computers for public to be able to use and they started to fund that.
But what they realized after a period of time was that while they were funding it, we in the library world weren't terribly adept at knowing what we needed to order next, nor convincing our budget offices, our our city council mayors, that we needed this technology. And so actually, they came to the Urban Libraries Council and said, Could you lead an initiative that would help libraries understand, how do you how do you evaluate what your needs are for the public on the technology side, and, and we created with some help of other organizations and smart library people, like you all, we can say we create a set of benchmarks and the benchmarks, actually, there are a set of standard strategies, activities and actions that a library leader like rich staff, organization, the management of the organization, need to take to accomplish some specific goals. digital equity, and inclusion is a specific bold goal that we hold dear in public libraries. So we created those benchmarks now they've been in the field for a period of time. And as terrible as COVID is bear that gave us the opportunity, think about what other benchmarks might we create that would be really valuable for which to use for you to use David. And so we're creating we have created a set of benchmarks on anti racism. How do we in libraries ensure that our library as an organization itself, is addressing systemic racism that exists certainly outside of our doors, but it exists inside our doors, too. So how do we make sure that we're making it a priority to become truly an equitable entity for all of our staff, we can't be good outside unless we're good inside. So we create a benchmarks that kind of help guide us through the actions that we need to take and to address to, to reduce an at some wonderful point in time in the future to eliminate systemic racism. So that's the we've got new digital equity and anti racism benchmarks that are being rolled out under H 360. And, and then soon to come will be benchmarks that the library can use that will help you evaluate how you're doing on your work with entrepreneurs and small businesses. And then one another set on how we're how we're doing in terms of our work with schools. So it's really meant as kind of a path forward is identifying, identifying, again, the things we need to do to see where we are on that path right now. Some areas will be real strong, other areas not so strong. And then once we identify those areas where we're not so strong, how do we level up? How do we learn from one another and level up? So that's what he 60s About in that. We're really we're really excited by everything that's we've had a small group of pilot libraries that have said, well, we'll test it for you all. And they've been doing that and we're just done with the test and we've got a whole new approach. For how we'll be working with our libraries are using using it. So we're excited about David, thanks for asking about it. Sure,
David 35:07
yeah. And something that's already existed for a while. And then I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on rates, just ULC statement on equity and social equity and race and kind of, you know, say a little bit about that kind of vitamins are kind of bring in libraries like us to be a part of that community.
Susan 35:26
Which do you remember the conversation that we convened here in Washington, DC? I think it was 2016?
RR 35:33
I do. I do remember that conversation. And you know, what, what I love about the statement on racial equity, is that something that it was not something that was presented to the leadership of the organization for check in and it was something that was very, it was, it was discussed, it was debated, it was like, Is this a lane for the library to even be it I mean, which sounds almost antiquated at this point, because we are so immersed, right, at least in DC in terms of issues around racial equity with everything that had happened during the last administration, and the murder of George Floyd. But back in 2016, our congressman I remember is like, I'm not sure this is a conversation we need to even be having. But I was so glad that we did. And that whole statement came from a vote, it was a very collaborative process. People were given lots of opportunities to weigh in. And, you know, at the end of the day, when the dust settled, I mean, what was really interesting was that, you know, there were member member libraries that, you know, were uncomfortable supporting it, because they felt that it would, there would be backlash, right in their community, that, you know, like, the term social justice was something that was something that couldn't be used in parts of our country, despite the fact that they personally believe that. But in any event, I mean, just the fact that we got so many member institutions to sign that document, it was really affirming, you know, and again, it was also, for me, sort of alluding back to what I was talking to earlier, just, you know, knowing that other libraries are grappling with the same thing. And boy, you know, having signed that thing, and then what we've experienced, right, since the summer of 2020, it's like, okay, we know that this is something that we can lean into, and this is something and we're not Johnny Come Lately, he's here anymore. This is not like issuing a statement after the murder of George Floyd. It's like something that libraries had been sort of pushing now for years, and sometimes unintentionally, but with with you LCS help, crystallize. And that's what again, you will see has done so well, in so many instances is just sort of crystallize thoughts that are being generated by individuals or systems here and there into something that is really, really something, you know, powerful and collaborative.
Susan 37:55
Yeah. And, you know, when you asked about the think and action tank, that was exactly that working group of about 15, CEOs of public libraries, who came together and met over a day and a half and talked about truly some very personal conversations about how, how each of us had experienced some social injustice, based on our ethnicity, based on the skin tone based on disabilities, we add, based on gender identity. And, you know, that race and social equity statement, that commitment statement came from a real place. And it was, it was, you know, understanding for ourselves the importance that we can play in addressing race, and social equity, and, and holding ourselves accountable. That was the other thing, not only crafting that commitment statement, but then holding ourselves accountable and saying, Okay, we're going to sign this. And then we're going to start to work towards addressing it. And then culminating with some anti racism benchmarks, but other things that we've done over the years to
David 39:15
in all that work. I'm just curious, are there any libraries that stand out in your, you know, you're looking back that there weren't really impressed you or just stand out in your memories?
Susan 39:26
Yeah. Well, that's really that's a really hard question, David, it really is. You know, that. Just you look across the ULC membership, and you see what they're doing. And Mitch, you talked about this conversation that occurs on a listserv on a daily basis with the CEOs, you know, one one of our colleagues sharing an incredible story about peer navigators and working in a particular brand Which in that city, addressing alcohol and drug addiction, and how the library becomes a space for that relationship, those peer conversations to have with people who are struggling with addiction. You know, this is also interesting to me, when I first started working with public libraries, I can't tell you the number of people said to me, Oh, my gracious Susan, I love going to the library. I always feel better, I always feel better. After I've gotten to the public library. Actually, I think there is real truth in that, I think that this space actually makes us feel better. There have been, there has been research done, that there are spaces that are actually physically and emotionally nourishing. Libraries are that. And in fact, there's a physician who, now in Portland, but when he was in medical school, he did some research about public libraries in their healing nature. And he also did a very small project that looked at how those who were using their library actively had more success and recovery program than those who are not using their library. So there there is this aspect of public space being important, we know that. So that, you know, that is I think one of the things that kind of stands out for me is just the way that libraries can see, again, some challenges that are occurring in their neighborhoods, and come up with really cool ways to address them.
David 41:44
We're coming up on time, towards the end of the conversation, I know, we could talk for twice this long about all these topics. Um, one thing that was, as was on my mind, as I was getting ready, also, though, was kind of leadership in public libraries. And so kind of philosophically What do you what's on your mind in terms of what, what, what makes for leadership and public libraries? And anecdotally, you know, you've both worked with the board and interacted with library leaders, both, you know, librarians, but also kind of leaders in urban spaces from all backgrounds. What, how would you what would you say about those kinds of topics, both leadership and those people that you've interacted with over the years?
Susan 42:25
Yeah, I don't know how you experienced this rich, but I, I see our, our colleagues, as having grown in their leadership, and continuing to grow in in the role that they play in their cities,
RR 42:42
I'd say certainly, since the pandemic, I absolutely agree with you. You know, look, the pandemic has hit everybody very hard, whether you're on the frontlines, whether you're in a leadership role. You know, we all have a family, we all have, you know, sicknesses in our family, and we've got, and we experience things in different ways. You know, the vulnerability that so many of our leaders have displayed over the past couple of years. And you know, using ULC, as that space in which they can confide to their peers, that they're struggling, they're struggling as leaders, they're struggling as people who are, you know, forced to open their doors in the middle of a pandemic, where you're not exactly sure what the best practices are, because it's all happening in real time. You know, I've got to say that, you know, for me, one of the great things that ULC has done in terms of leadership development is allow, allow leaders to, to be vulnerable, right. I mean, I think the empathy that that we've had for one another, is something that that has been really remarkable and affirming. So many of our colleagues have been there just as a as a, just a real meaningful support system. And when we are being on the board, working so closely for six years now, as my time comes up on the board with people like Vickery Bowles and Toronto or Gil born or sky, Patrick in LA, my goodness, these people have been just so incredibly supportive. And you know, the best part is that you realize, as leaders, you don't have to have all the answers, and you have to be very transparent about that. You're you're not sure, right? You're not sure. And that's, that's okay. And I think people respect that. And I don't know if it was the same five years ago or seven years ago, I think you had to be you had to at least give off the air of war. Like, you know, I know what's right. And don't worry about it. Now. It's like, you know, we're in this together and I'm gonna do my best to lead in this situation. But but, you know, this is going to be iterative, and some people take comfort in that. And I think that's something that I can also you'll see A lot of credit for at least my personal experience,
Susan 45:02
I think that certainly that wonderful cocoon that ends up being created by the Urban Libraries Council for leaders to be together. And to learn, continuously learn and share with one another. You know, it's in leadership happens at all, at all levels, you know that you know what you're leaving here? It's not easy. And we don't know the answers. I mean, the reality is we don't, we shouldn't know the answers. Society is changing the cities changing every day. How could we know the answers to the new circumstances that we're facing? So it's important that we have one another to be able to work towards? Coming up with new, innovative, innovative ways to address things? It seems we're always bringing them back off the shelf and forgotten about them that works, we should remember that
RR 45:53
it seems a lot less hierarchical than when I was a much younger staff member. Yeah. Where leadership was something that you know, was somewhere else in a different building in your library. It wasn't as present as it seems to be me, I think it's a lot flatter. Now. I think that there's just much more involvement with not just me, but library leadership in general, with with with with staff members. Yeah. You know, talking issues through and, you know, hopefully landing landing in the right, in the right place.
Susan 46:24
Yes. And that's that is with within our organizations, and then I think the leadership that we're serving in our cities, and counties is also really significant. I do remember, when I first came to USC, here we are, at times of frustration, there being, for example, a task force that been created by the mayor on education, not in this city. But no, in general, this was happening all over the country, a task force had been created on education and critical people had been invited to the first meeting. But the library CEO, the library executive, hadn't been thought of as part of that equation for education in that city. And I, I think that we have demonstrated our value, so that we are sometimes the first organization to be called on a multitude of issues, for
RR 47:24
better or worse, or better. Or maybe one or two examples of wish I may wish I hadn't gotten that call from.
Susan 47:34
But I'm honored. But but but you've also created space for people here. I mean, you've created space for city agencies to be here in your libraries so that they can be connected with the public. And, you know, that's also something new, it's an integration of, of what we're doing with with others is significant. And that takes a lot of connecting with your peers across the street.
David 47:57
Well, we're just at the end of time, Susan, any final thoughts? Anything we didn't get to that you want to offer a little more on?
Susan 48:05
Yeah, democracy, public libraries and democracy. I, you know, I've got, I've got a lot of fire in me right now about the importance of libraries, and convening critical conversations that reduce the divides and polarization between people. And what a special what a special fabric democracy is, and our role in helping to support that.
David 48:40
Well, let's get together again in two years, three years. It's a date, only good things and hopeful things to say about the state of democracy and how libraries have been a part of
Susan 48:50
that. Yeah. Thanks, David. Thanks, Rich.
RR 48:52
Thank you, Susan, for everything you've done. And David, thanks for everything you do here all the time. Yeah.
David 49:01
You just listen to ninth and G on DC Public Library podcast recorded from the Grand Reading Room and the historic modernized Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial Library in downtown Washington DC. Susan, Rich, thank you so much. Thanks, everybody.
Labs DCPL 49:16
You just tuned in to DC Public Library podcast listen and subscribe at DC library.org/podcasts or wherever podcasts are available. Send us your comments at DCPL on Twitter, or follow us at DC Public Library on Instagram and Facebook. Thank you for listening
Transcribed by https://otter.ai