Joanna & Amanda discuss the first novel in the VillanElle trilogy by Luke Jennings, touching on the realities of the female assassin and remark on the LGBTQ+ lens that is prominent in the Killing Eve TV series (based on the books) and how that escalates the narrative.
Labs DCPL 0:00
DC Public Library podcast is made possible in part by the Institute of Museum and Library Services and is a production of the labs at DC Public Library.
Amanda 0:24
Welcome back to another episode of Literary Musings. I am your host, Amanda,
Joanna 0:29
And I'm your other host Joanna.
Amanda 0:30
And this month we are talking about killing Eve Codename: Villanelle dun dun dun.
The books that the fantastic TV show is based off of, even though I have not watched i.
Joanna 0:45
I have so there'll be lots of conversation, and possibly some shaming. So having watched the TV series,
I have mixed expectations and feelings about the book series, which we will be discussing all three of the books in the series. But this first one it felt
I mean don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it immensely. But in the TV series, there's a very obvious
will they won't they, you know, not even quiet, you know, lesbian possible love affair happening, like almost immediately, it's very,
Oh, goodness, I can't think of the name it's gonna kill me
Amanda 1:31
I feel like that's easier
almost to show than to you, write. Because this is the first book. So it's the introduction, not just to the story, but to the characters. So you have to, which literally introduce them their backstory, who they are.
But I feel like you definitely get that subtext in the book, especially when they finally not even meet when I guess villanelle actually sees Eve for up close for the first time, and she's
Basically flirting with her while she's sleeping.
Joanna 2:06
Well, it's not. For me, it's not even so much Villanelle. And her behavior, it's more in the TV series, Eve is very initially first attracted to the fact that the serial killer is a murder or the assassins a murderer. And they're powerful. And they're getting away with all this stuff. And then she's like, attracted to the gore of it kind of like
oh, what was that?
Amanda 2:33
Maybe that's why she's an officer, detect
Joanna 2:35
Religious leader in California that was supposed to be really handsome that all the women were obsessed with I can't think of the name right now. But it's almost like that kind of situation
Amanda 2:46
Was she obsessed with the murder aspect, or?
Joanna 2:50
I think it was that, but I think also, her trying to figure out who it was, and not just the fact that the murder was happening, but how it was happening, how she was murdering people, like the tools she was using. And then it became almost this thing of
I want to see it could I do it? Could I do such a thing like this woman seems like she just be your normal everyday woman like she doesn't seem like she's crazy. Can I be capable of murdering someone and she started going around, like, testing herself, like stabbing herself in the thigh to see if she could do it and like wondering if she'd, you know, want to murder someone like there was some incident that happened to her like at the grocery store or something like that. And she was like, I just hit this person back for running into me like what does that say about me?
Amanda 3:39
We've not yet read book two.
Joanna 3:42
No. So it could totally be happening.
Amanda 3:45
It could I mean, the
Joanna 3:46
But it was very central in like the first couple episodes of the season. And once you really started to be like,
everything about me is wonderful.
Amanda 3:56
She's Well, yeah, she she's not that she's very she is obsessed.
Joanna 4:03
Yes, she's definitely
Amanda 4:05
the case itself, but also with the villanelle. And that does I think come across very easily in the book of
she ignores not purposefully I wouldn't say but she, her marriage and her husband are definitely placed on the backburner to this case.
Joanna 4:25
Yes,
Amanda 4:25
Specifically.
And he gives up and focuses a lot about on her happiness and what they're doing what he's doing for her and she does not reciprocate that at all. However, she is very, very hyper focused and hyper vigilant on
this mysterious assassin who is a woman who is
incredibly smart.
Joanna 4:51
Yes. Yeah,
Amanda 4:53
until her partner gets killed and then it's a different type of obsession and focus that you see
Joanna 5:02
I don't know i mean i agree yes but
How they break I mean you're right the way you'd break it down in a visual medium would be different.
Amanda 5:11
yeah you would break it down especially with skilled and talented actor
They can take three pages of description that's in a book and boil it down to two minutes of
yeah
Joanna 5:31
I think one of the main threads they have in common though is a little something I like to call the fashion of murder that gets discussed in detail in the book and on the TV series like you didn't watch it but you've had to have heard some of the commentary and stuff happening articles and magazines or papers about the way villanelle dresses and what they're putting her in and you know the way you can use you know fashion or covering or what have you as a way to disguise and convince people that you're not this assassin you're you're you're just a girl and you don't understand the ways of war
Amanda 6:11
Yes, I I've seen I have a friend who is completely obsessed partly because of the fashion and partly because of the story and it's fantastic with the show. And that is definitely one thing that you do get in the books that I'm, even though I haven't watched, it I'm really happy does translate because I mean
clothes if nothing else fashion I won't say clothes fashion is if nothing else a
all about visual and the fact that Luke Jennings?
Joanna 6:45
yes
Amanda 6:46
The fact that Luke Jennings does such a fantastic job of writing and describing how these garments look and how she looks at any given time and the juxtaposition of Villanelle being this very high fashion forward striking person in comparison to Eve who is just written almost as a very dowdy dressed covered up detective.
Joanna 7:16
I mean she dresses like a cop right? Like
Amanda 7:18
Yeah,
Joanna 7:18
You want to look people to look at Yeah, I want to be noticed. Yes.
Amanda 7:21
And although villanelle job is essentially not to be noticed, you know, her goal is to
make her mark and get out of there as quickly and as easily as possible, but she dresses in such a way that she leaves an impression.
The fashion is brilliantly written and
Joanna 7:43
There is and it may come up in the subsequent books apart in the TV series where villanelle gets a hold of, oh, maybe isn't the first one villanelle gets a hold of Eve's luggage.
Amanda 7:56
Yes. And she takes her scarf?
Joanna 7:58
And she takes not just her scarf, she like replaces all of her luggage with like high end fitted bespoke clothing couture.
Amanda 8:07
I don't think she replaces it in the book
Joanna 8:10
In the show like he was like I can't believe they lost my luggage like her carry on, like where did it go and then it gets delivered to her house when she gets back home to London. And it's all this couture and bespoke clothing like this perfume that's called Villanelle and it's very you know, como ci como ca like Oh, the elicit love affair officially has begun because now you've got this you know rich person buying new things and. Eve doesn't want to keep any of it like she does the you know the thing where you obsessively smell the perfume and rub your face on the silk and the fabric and everything. And like, presses it against her body. And I'm just like, this is not even subtext. At this point.
We're just all text is all.
But I thought that was a interesting commentary because even Villanelle's just like, oh, Sweeting. No.
So I thought it was cute that the scarf does get taken in the TV series, but then they also bumped it up a notch and we're like, Hey, no, you can't wear these things; it's not okay.
Amanda 9:16
I mean, also you know you have Sandra Oh, who's just
Ridiculously fantastic.
Joanna 9:22
Yes, she's very good as he I think it made a really good decision in choosing Jodie Comer to be the villain. I love her.
Amanda 9:32
My silent She's amazing.
Joanna 9:34
Yeah.
Amanda 9:34
Sorry. voice that whoops. Forgot.
Joanna 9:39
They start off at a museum in the novel. And
they start off talking about the actual art the statuary in the museum and it's Villanelle and I guess the person we can assume is her friend right now. The most useful of her
Amanda 10:00
Her only
real tangible contact
Joanna 10:07
In the quote unquote outside world.
Amanda 10:08
Yeah.
Joanna 10:09
Even though she's using her, it's still she's she likes to hang out with her.
Amanda 10:13
Yeah, she's using her, but she actually, like, enjoys her company.
Joanna 10:18
Yes.
Amanda 10:19
At times.
Joanna 10:22
I mean,
I relationship, it's okay.
It's okay.
Amanda 10:28
It's similar and their use of sex to get what they want with things.
Or maybe that's not the right way to word it similar in their
casual use of sex to get what they want.
Joanna 10:44
Yes, yes.
So they talk about
Kanovas
art and the juxtaposition of the male and the female figure in the statuary. And then Eve makes the mental commentary more than anything of, well, there are mainly two ways to see this piece of work, you can see it the way the quote unquote sheep see it. You know the rest of the people in the museum. Where, you know, it's a woman who has fallen, and the man is helping her up, and it's very demure, and very gentlemanly, and, you know, chivalric and all the things. Or you can see it as somebody's about to get raped basically. And then the question has become who's the victim here? Is it the woman who's demurely batting her eyes at this gentleman? She wants to make the move on? Or is it the man who's the aggressor in the situation? And kind of I'm helping you so now you owe me something kind of situation. And it just, I mean, artist is subjective, I think, you know, we're all in situate. We know, like, everyone sees something different. But it's also very interesting to then think of it. Oh, so what is the person who created the art actually trying to convey in the art here? And then what does your interpretation of the art say about you? Like, we know what they're trying to say about villanelle; she's a predator. We get that, but the fact that she would see both sides of it and then decide No, no, no, the sheep are wrong. It's the wolf who is correct kind of thing, but
also be okay with, I'm gonna let the sheep think what the sheep want to think because that makes things easier for me like, Who were the sheep? Like, are the men the sheep? Because, you know, she's the assassin. Is everyone else this sheep? Like, what is the breakdown? I suppose.
Amanda 12:43
I think it would be everyone else.
She views people as replaceable playthings, for the most part, with very few exceptions, being her friend, and also now Eve later in the book.
But yeah, I would say for the most part, the sheep, the, those walking with wool over their eyes are those who don't
necessarily think that their lives are in danger at any given point in time.
Joanna 13:18
Right
Amanda 13:21
People who are given a piece of or not even a piece of people who go into a museum, and they look at a work of art, and someone tells them, oh, this is what it means. And they say, oh okay, yeah, cool. I see that", as opposed to perhaps, say, if Eve were to go into that Museum, and to look at that specific,
Joanna 13:42
what would she see?
Amanda 13:43
What would she see? Would she see a woman who is being carefully picked up and held up by a strong man? Or would you see a woman who is being pursued?
Joanna 13:56
I think it's interesting that the couple is supposed to be Cupid and Psyche.Am I saying that correctly? I feel like I'm saying it wrong, but no.
And there's the momentary commentary on assigned gender roles and gender roles as they're viewed. And it's like, well, as I was saying, is he being chivalric? Or is he about to lull her into a false sense of security and rape her? Is she being demure and feminine? Or is she using the appearance of demere femininity to lull him into a false sense of security? Like it's very,
it's, it's a good way, I think, to start off the novel and get you in the headspace of someone you're going to be viewing everything through because
Amanda 14:43
Yeah,
Joanna 14:44
I don't. I don't know. I like to think that, you know, I would look at something and see that but then maybe not necessarily.
Amanda 14:52
Yeah, it also helps you sort of realize that going forward, you can't necessarily take everything that's written at face value.
Joanna 14:59
Yes.
Amanda 15:00
Perhaps you should be questioning what's on the page.
Joanna 15:05
Speaking of. What did you think of our controller main character like how did you feel about Villanelle as the person whose mind you're seeing everything through.
Amanda 15:16
I think it's a fascinating study of
someone who is supposedly supposed to be this sociopath quaisi
not even really psychotic but quasi sociopathic
assassin
because she doesn't actually legitimately fit the bill at least not as she's written in the first book.
Joanna 15:45
as an assassin or?
Amanda 15:47
as an sociopath.
Joanna 15:49
Okay.
Amanda 15:51
She is not someone who
does not feel human emotion and does not make human connections.
She almost goes out of her way at some points to have connections and I don't mean like the sex aspect that's just a means to an end for the most part for her.
But she does make real connections with different women throughout her life that you get to see in flashbacks. She makes even as brief of an actual meeting that she has with Eve that's a real connection, that immediately she is there. The other assassin
that she knew as a child from school, I think it was.Like
there was more to that connection than just oh, we get to I'm going to do this to stay alive and survive.
Joanna 16:46
Yes.
Amanda 16:48
The teacher that she thought she was in love with.
Case in point, someone who she went out of her way to defend her honor.
Joanna 17:00
Yes. very Chivalric
Amanda 17:03
Yeah.
So is she Cupid or is she psyche?
Joanna 17:08
I think she might be a little bit of both.
Amanda 17:12
Yeah, I think I think she's fascinating.
Joanna 17:14
Yeah.
I had a lot of
internal struggle with this not because I had anything, or had a problem with her being a sociopath and or a narcissist, but because I had to stop and ask myself, am I a narcissist and a sociopath.
Amanda 17:33
Thus the dangers of trying to diagnose yourself!
Joanna 17:38
There were too many things happening in that novel where I was like, I can I could see why she would do that and I would probably do the same thing.
It was. it was interesting. It was very, just to make a quick um
visual representation of it in the TV show. They start off with her being like in an ice cream shop. And she's purchased some ice cream and you know she the teenager at the ice cream bar is all falling all over themselves because I mean, Jodie Comer right and she's sitting there eating the ice cream, just looking kind of "eh" And then she sees this little girl, eating her ice cream, enjoying it smiling, happy, cheerful, and she's like mimicking, "Oh okay, that's what genuine joy and enjoyment and you know, non sexual pleasure looks like" and how can I make my face. You see her go through the motions of you know, trying to get the smile on her face like think Wesnesday Addams in Addams Family value is when she's trying to smile like that whole situation happening. And then when she gets it down. She gets up, she's leaving the ice cream parlor you know, she makes eye contact with the teenager behind the counter and makes his day while he's ignoring what's going on cuz he's staring at her. She just casually knocks over little girls dish of ice cream onto the floor and like cackles as she leaves this little girl screaming and crying and I
was just floored and thought it was most hilarious, wonderful, awesome thing that I'd ever seen. I was just like,
I'm two much like this person. Like, I wouldn't do that. I don't think most of us would do that. But the desire to do it, I think is there and a lot of us and I guess that's the difference. When
at some extent you do care what society thinks or what other people think or even about other people's feelings and emotions versus being a narcissist or a sociopath and just be like, well, this will bring me joy. So and it's just no concern for how it affects anyone else. And I just was like, okay, you know, Amanda was like, Well, the fact that you're questioning yourself means you're probably not.
But
Amanda 19:46
Just saying
if you are wondering
whether or not
you have the capability to be a raging narcissist,
Joanna 20:00
The answer is probably no
Amanda 20:02
The answer is probably no if you're worried about other people's feelings
Joanna 20:07
I mean I felt like it was reasonable because deep down I think we all sometimes just want to watch it burn but it takes its special person to like actually light the match on fire and throw it. So, but just another little nugget if you haven't watched the show go watch it and cackle along with her.
Interpersonal relationships
and sex as a weapon
Like an actual manipulative weapon at some time point in the novel but just in general using your quote unquote feminine wiles to manipulate, confuse, and throw off not just you know, the opposite sex but your own gender at points in the novel.
Does that narcissistic tendencies? Is that something that just you know, people certain age to is it cuz she's an assassin? Like what do we? I don't know like I feel like
yeah, I feel like the general expectation is after a certain age, it's just you don't want to have sex anymore and I think there's you know,
Amanda 21:23
I feel like at this point in 2021
We have
Joanna 21:27
I think that stereotype is still
Amanda 21:30
The amount of
STDs that are rampant in retirement communities. I feel like have debunked that myth.
Uh but no.
I think that number one, she was raised by a man who
What was her dad? Not officially in
Joanna 21:56
he used to be like KGB-esque.
Amanda 21:58
Yeah, like he was quasi assassinesque. So she was raised by a man who
taught her previously to essentially use whatever she needed to to survive. And then she became an assassin herself. So I don't know if
without having become an assassin and just being a violent, uh,
murderous
So not doing it for pay we're just doing it for kicks.
Just like "eh cool, um"
Because now her first sort of
foray into sex and feelings and using sex as a weapon was again with her teacher she
thought she was in love with a woman who was supposed to be a guiding hand essentially.
And she did not take rejection well. Hello, nice guy. And
after that, I that was a turning point possibly in her mind of realizing that "Oh, people look at me like they want me. I've become an assassin." This is just part of it's just another tool in her arsenal of
either getting away like in oh where was she? Beijing.
Joanna 23:25
Yes, yes.
And she was in bed with the
Amanda 23:30
Yeah, the nephew of the guy she had just killed
having sex with a gun to his head.
Joanna 23:37
But I appreciate it that it was like you know, an option given, like you know
just sit here and try to murder each other. But like see respect you because you seem good at your job. So how about we do?
Amanda 23:49
So I think it was more of potentially a learned thing.
After the initial heartbreak, and did she murder the guy or did she just maim him?
Joanna 24:02
she just maimed him
It's a very polite way of saying Yeah, but were pG 13 here.
But I don't
Amanda 24:17
We're gonna have to have to cut some of that.
Joanna 24:18
I don't know.
If that initial I mean, I do believe that initial foray into the world of romance whether a teacher was real for her like I do believe she felt those feelings.
Amanda 24:30
Yes.
Joanna 24:30
But I do also think the act of her getting rid of the abusive boyfriend/husband/competition. What have you.
Amanda 24:42
Wasn't it just another student who attacked her?
Joanna 24:46
Was it another? Yes. She wasn't married in this one. Okay,
Amanda 24:50
No, yeah she was a single.
Joanna 24:51
Show and the book. In the book. She's a single teacher who is young enough or I guess the male
populating the school was like, "Oh, yeah, no, she totally wants me She totally is checking me out, I'm going to follow her home and do unfortunate things to her in the woods" like
So it's not that the gentleman didn't have it coming.
It's just I do think part of it was I'm going to save you. And in response, you'll owe me. I think it was very, I think on some part it was very conscious and very thought out
Amanda 25:27
It was very white knight
Joanna 25:29
thing. Yes, it was it was but
Amanda 25:32
which is very interesting that the
as such a
Joanna 25:39
sociopath,
Amanda 25:40
Well no, no, as such a very feminine actually bi woman in the story that she has some very toxic masculinity traits.
Joanna 25:55
Well, I guess that could be also sent back to the fact that to transpire father,
Amanda 26:00
That's true.
Joanna 26:01
And she didn't have a female influence in her life. So
I mean,
There's a very real possibility that she's unaware that her behavior is toxic, toxic, and masculine. And that it's not just how relationships work.
which, unfortunately, she would not be the only one.
But I do find it interesting that
she intentionally uses sex and not even just like the act of sex, but like her sexuality, as as young, attractive, exotic looking foreign, what have you woman to not even just manipulate people she's, you know, set on or as a mark, but just this is one time she's out at dinner, and she sees a couple.
Amanda 26:51
Yeah.
Joanna 26:52
And you know, she goes over there as she sits with them. And she's like, the woman's okay, but the guy is kind of hot. So whatever, I'll let them buy me stuff. And it'll be fine. Like, this whole concept of, I'm young, and I'm prettier. So the world is mine. And people would never think I'd be like, XYZ because I look like the stereotypical other thing. Like, I just found that so interesting. And I guess that's a little bit of where I was like, "Oh, is that all it takes to be a narcissist?" I feel like
like, is that the bar?
Amanda 27:24
No.
No, it's not.
Joanna 27:27
There's a very transactional relationship sexually with her and there's no
yes.
It's definitely I'm bored. I want to do this.
Amanda 27:41
Yes
Joanna 27:42
Come entertain me.
Amanda 27:43
Because that night specifically with that couple, she was literally bored and waiting for like the next
Joanna 27:50
assign. Yeah.
Amanda 27:51
And she got it immediately.
Joanna 27:53
And then just dipped.
Amanda 27:54
like in the middle of whatever transaction was going on, and she's like, "Alright, bye."
So yeah, it's
it is very transactional. It's her entertainment of treating people who she doesn't care about as playthings. She can do whatever she wants with them, because they don't matter.
So she does.
Joanna 28:26
Do you, they mentioned in the novel, Well, I guess Jennings mentioned in the novel gives Oksana the characteristic of having a voracious appetite in regards to sex because sex is manipulation.
Is it just do you think it's just literally the sexual aspect of it like we were saying, you know, the the flirting and the the con of convincing someone with sex that they want to do whatever for you? Or is it the whole hunt, quote, unquote, around attraction and flirting and you know, if it takes longer then you're more interested in doing it, versus like the couple at dinner who were like, hooked before she even really, you know, stepped into the role of seductress for the evening like
it's very Linus on the hunt. It's very, you know, Captain Nemo and Moby Dick. Very obsessive.
Amanda 29:27
It is.
Joanna 29:28
You know, and I just
Tthe concept of that is something that I find very interesting because he didn't write her that way and then try to shame her he didn't make it like "Oh, she's like this and that's horrible because she's a woman." And it's not you know, Christian of her ot it's not you know, these are the things. He was like nope, this is just who she is. This is just what is happening and it felt very
if I didn't know it was a man writing this, I would not assume it was a man writing this because usually right about now is when the shame begins.
Amanda 30:02
Well one, I'm going to need for you to read better authors.
We're just gonna start there. Uh and two know yeah nothing about it I mean, you have a young, Russian woman who is a professional assassin and murdering people left and right if there were ever anything to shame her for it would be the fact that she cares so little about human life as opposed to the fact that she's having casual sex and enjoying it.
Casual sex and sex meant to save your life like.
between the two of them, what's worse?
I mean, let's be real here. casual sex isn't it? Hooking up with random people just because you can, is not
objectively bad.
Murdering someone whether or not they are a mob boss or whatever her other mark was or someone who is you know, just getting mixed up in different intelligence forces and therefore has to be taken out like.
Just realistically here if an author wherever to be like, Oh, this is bad. Look how awful they are. It would, I would hope be for the murder.
But he's not writing it as
None of it comes across as you should be viewing her as necessarily the Bad Guy. Like you.
Obviously, yes, she is the villain her. It's codename Villanelle for Pete's sake.
But yeah, you you don't read it and detest the character. You don't read it and automatically root for Eve and for New Scotland Yard be like "yeah, we we got her, we're good." Like, you read it. And you always hope just a little bit like, "Oh, she's she's gonna be fine, obviously, because the book is about her." But
Joanna 32:11
you want her to succeed?
Amanda 32:12
Yeah, it's almost
Like she's not an antihero by any means. She's not a hero. But she's also you.
Like her.
Joanna 32:25
Yes. You want Yes, she's wanting to win, you want to succeed, you want to get away. Like all the things like you're not even concerned about, like, at least for me the morality of any of the kids, you
Amanda 32:36
No, yeah, because it doesn't matter.
Joanna 32:38
It was like she's horrible to people. But she's so great with that cat that lives in her buildings.
That's the important part to me.
Amanda 32:47
No, yeah.
Joanna 32:47
Animal cruelty will not be tolerated. But I mean, people.
There's this part. And they do a little differently in the book versus a TV show in the TV show. You know, Oxana who is Villanova's maybe not consumed. But very interested in that moment when the life leaves the eyes of her victim. Like she's trying to discover, you know?
Do you have a soul? Is there an afterlife? Like if I stare into the eyes of my victims long enough, will I see whatever they're always saying is out there? kind of theological discussion that she's having with herself in these very personal, intimate, private moment with her victims. And in the novel, at least at this point in the novels, she's doing that same thing, but it's with the people she's seducing sexually. She's like, "That moment when you see the last of the resistance behind their eyes.
And their ultimate surrender, and you know, you've got them." It's just like, Ah, okay, I see what you're talking about here. And here's another tick in my maybe I'm a narcissist.
It's very, the juxtaposition of that the show versus the book and how they discuss it. I just thought that was very interesting, because it doesn't the sexual aspect of it, and, well, there's a four season so it may come up, but it hasn't come up at all. In the previous seasons, rarely, like, she has sex, she enjoys it, she picks up and discards people like clothes, fine. But they don't get into the discussion of you know, this is when you know you've gotten your person like this is that the feeling. This is what it looks like, you know, it's almost like when fishermen talk about the perfect cast, like there's that whole feeling behind it when she discusses it, and it was just, I find that interesting. And I wanted to know do you think that that's a thing like, have you ever had that feeling in your life or like I've won that even just sexually this in general, that whole? This is the moment when you realize "I've won whatever the situation is," and do you feel about that? The way she expresses it in the novels.
Amanda 35:02
Have I ever..
Joanna 35:04
had that? Do you understand that feeling of
I've got my prey where I want them?
Like I see it with my cat all the time that looks she gets her tail twitches when she's got the mouse exactly where she wants them before she pounce.
Amanda 35:21
I am
less of um
the short answer is no.
Joanna 35:29
See, this is why I think I'm a narcissist.
Amanda 35:31
But the, the long answer is that I am a person who enjoys sort of silently guiding and leading people to where I want them to be and coming to those ideas on their own.
Joanna 35:45
you're disapproving eyebrow game is on point.
Amanda 35:48
Thank you.
Joanna 35:53
You've got momface down
Amanda 35:54
31 years of hard work man
Joanna 35:59
So
dealing with having a female villain who is not just
a Black Widow type of female villain
I mean seems.
I don't remember the years it was published, but it seems for the time may have been one of the very few times that that was happening when it wasn't a fantasy novel. When it wasn't you know, a maiden somewhere who decided she was going to quote unquote save herself.
Amanda 36:32
Even still like even now there are very few sort of
realistic fiction that
has a woman as the villain or antagonist who doesn't have these weird like
I don't want to call them stupid but
reasons for doing whatever they're doing that are just so
Joanna 37:00
she's not operating from like a man broke my heart so now do XYZ
Amanda 37:06
Yes, like she she as a person
pre becoming an actual assassin was already a very violent human being, but that's how she was raised She was raised knowing that she would have to defend herself and defend her father. So I appreciate that that aspect that she isn't.
She is a strong character in her own right she is written the way male characters get written there isn't this long sob story component. It's just this is how she is this is what she is and you're gonna deal with it and the same with Eve actually, she is
not a perfect hero. She is very flawed. She is
apparently in the show somewhat easily malleable.
Joanna 38:03
Very much she's very Inspector Cluosso in
Amanda 38:06
yeah
Joanna 38:06
Series the fumbling detective who the quote unquote villain falls in love with slash feels kind of sorry for
A weird relationship begins .I would actually honestly compare it to Will Graham and Hannibal.
Amanda 38:25
I was waiting for that honestly because it feels like you have
maybe Will Graham
Joanna 38:35
little magnetic you know mystery mysterious well dressed villain who eats questionable food but you know it's very well I mean
Amanda 38:46
Questionable
Joanna 38:47
I don't know that TV series all of it looked delicious, and I'd be willing to risk some stuff to try
This is probably a person but it looks delicious. So you know what this is what's happening tonight but very just intermatic
why it full body presence. And then you've got this FBI agent MI5 agent who that's right she was but well not as bumbly but very you know
Amanda 39:15
He is very competent
Joanna 39:17
Hunched in so
Amanda 39:19
He's a very
Joanna 39:20
Shy quiet in the corner. You know, all my friends are literally dogs and dealing for the only people I actually talked to are my husband and that one person who sits next to me in the cubicle like
Amanda 39:33
Yeah.
Joanna 39:34
Insular people who meet these other people. Will works with Hannibal in the TV series. And Eve is chasing Oxana slash Villanelle. But the relationship one knows the other person is the quote unquote bad guy, and the other doesn't know and it just the way it plays out.
Where you see all these parallels: of I know you're bad for me, but I can't quit you kind of tawdry romance going on. It's I it's
it was enjoyable both senses. The subtext of both of the LGBTQ relationships in the storylines were great
Spoiler alert if you haven't seen the end of the Hannibal series, but if the Killing Eve ends the way that Hannibal and I'm something's getting thrown in my house
I was so angry!
I needed more!
This and Pinterest is you know getting me all types of lives because I'm not the only one who's made this comparison and there's so much
Amanda 40:46
No
That's actually why I watch channel because for some reason I randomly and I never looked at, pinned. I mean I've read the books but
also silence of the lamb Red Dragon fantastic.
Joanna 41:02
Oh my God, yes
Amanda 41:04
I'm curently rereading them because it's October.
Joanna 41:06
Read them, watch the movies watch it on the TV series because they definitely cover that
Amanda 41:11
Fantastic. Um, but so that's why I watched it finally 10,000 years later, because someone randomly like for this weird thing of this Oh, this trope of you know, it's basically the same thing over and over and I was like, Yeah, but is it I still haven't actually
watched killing Eve and again, we're at book one so we'll see how the books go.
Joanna 41:40
I want.
Amanda 41:41
Yeah.
Joanna 41:42
While we're talking about this relationship, I think is a good time to break up the um,
who's the victim situation we were talking about earlier?
Amanda 41:54
Which relationship?
Joanna 41:56
B,oth like we're talking about Villanelle and killing and Eve here so let's focus on them, but I think there's a good parallel there. Like who the victimization of people is something that comes up in shows, books, movies,
Amanda 42:11
Yes
Joanna 42:12
of this genre. There's usually definitely someone, someone's getting murdered, and the person who's murdered them. There's a direct victimizer victim situation in both of these series but to concentrate on Villanelle. There's definitely a back and forth of who the quote unquote "victim" is. And I don't even necessarily think after a certain point there's between Eve and Villanelle either one of them is really detecting. There are victims, people die inboth of these, but Hannibal never really goes after Will until the in there in the TV series, but not directly he messes with his head, but I mean, who is not messed with someone's head.
Amanda 42:56
The entire first series purposefully
Joanna 42:59
Messing with his head.
Amanda 42:59
Not. not messing with this head. He purposefully hid a diagnosis.
Let him have multiple seizures.
Joanna 43:08
I mean, who doesn't do weird things when they're in love? I'm just saying it's
Amanda 43:14
In that dynamic will is most definitely the victim until like, mm midway of season two.
Joanna 43:20
He doesn't try to kill him I guess is what I'm saying here. And
Amanda 43:26
Just because you don't try to kill someone doesn't mean they're not a victim
Joanna 43:29
I'm trying to make a point here.
Start with your logic point. And Villanelle, she never really comes after Eve. She kills the people around her. Victimizes the people around her, later on there's some weird stuff that happens with her husband I think you might enjoy, but
there's never that one on one confrontation I guess is what I'm trying to say there's never that "haha we meet again, my mortal enemy" kind of thing and either of those relationships. Like Will doesn't know Hannibal is manipulating him and taking advantage of him and causing him seizures and
Amanda 44:10
Until the season
Joanna 44:12
right, but while it's happening,
Amanda 44:14
Yeah,
Joanna 44:14
He doesn't know and then once he finds out the relationship dynamics change. Eve doesn't realize initially that
the reason she's so obsessed with villanelle is because she kind of wants to be Villanelle, or at least be like Villanelle. And have the autonomy to do what she wants when she wants to not worry about the consequences kind of situation. And I think there's a part of Villanelle that enjoys the bumbling innocence, at least in the TV series of Eve's character are that you know, jolly silly, she's gonna mess this up but it's apparently going to be fine kind of situation because Villan
Eve doesn't live in Villanelle's world of "this could literally kill me. If something goes wrong."
Amanda 45:07
I
will, let's one try to dial it back to the books. But also just because there's not
Manipulating someone, manipulating the outcome of a certain event systematically isolating someone.
Yes, that makes them a victim.
Joanna 45:28
But if it's what you want,
Amanda 45:33
You don't make that decision for someone.
Joanna 45:35
No, I mean, specifically here, the Villanelle and Eve. Eve definitely wants to be in a situation with Villanelle that Will Graham is in with Hannibal. She wants to she wants all of the attention on herself. She wants to be the center of attention.
Amanda 45:53
At the cost of
Joanna 45:54
At the Cost of
Amanda 45:55
Around her.
Joanna 45:55
Yes, she, as you said is willing to give up relationships and let go of things that normally would be very important. Her marriage falls to the wayside, her job falls to the wayside that eventually she just gives up on everything but the acquisition of this other person.
When you're in when that's the situation, when that's the way you feel, is there a victim in that situation? Like if you're getting what you want?
Even if it's at the expense of everything else? Is there a victim?
Like if I'm complicit in, you know, murdering all the people around you, but it's what you want? Because you want to be alone in a room with me forever. Does it, are is there if I'm not talking about the other people who are being murdered just between the two of them in that relationship?
Is there a victimization happening? Like does it matter? how it happens if it was what you both want to take all the morality off of the table of people being hurt? Like, if the two people in the relationship are happy with the outcome of what's happening?
Amanda 47:02
Being happy with the outcome of what's happening doesn't mean that you haven't been manipulated to want what's happening?
Joanna 47:09
How so?
Amanda 47:12
Can you trust your own emotions when you weren't the one who's in charge of them?
Can you trust your own mind? If you weren't the one who's in charge of it?
Joanna 47:21
But then how do you know you're not the one in charge of it? Because even we take these extreme relationships off the board, one could say in your everyday relationship, you're not necessarily in charge of what you feel or what you think that initial jolt of dopamine you get when you first fall in love. And you first
Amanda 47:41
You have to make
Joanna 47:42
fall in whatever else
Amanda 47:42
The decision to make need to take those actions.
Joanna 47:46
Do you make the decision like are you making you have to make those actions? Are you making a
Amanda 47:52
Yeah,
Joanna 47:52
No, no, no, no, no, let me ask the question, woman. Are you making the conscious decision to feel about a person, what you are feeling? And then to act on it? Like we're not talking about consent here? I just mean,
once you develop that crush, are you making conscious decisions to continue to feel that way? Or
Amanda 48:15
I think you do.
Joanna 48:15
develop that crush. And then you know the reaction you have to being around that person or seeing them in the hallway or you know, the weird inappropriate things you tell your friends about what you feel about that person? Like?
Are those conscious actions? The oversharing might be, but are those conscious actions? Or are those a reaction you're having physically, that to a certain extent you can't control like. The most of us are out there just screaming about our hearts that people we have crushes on? But the racing pulse, the dilation of your pupils, the emotional, physical, reactions.
Amanda 48:53
who you are or what you are attracted to, but the development of a crush and the development of strong emotions for someone, I think you do have you have to make that decision to be in love with someone .You have to make that decision to actively foster those emotions.
Your initial reaction, your initial attraction and your continued attraction, no, those are physiological responses. Like those are something that is more of a reflex, as opposed to a thought process that you have chosen.
Joanna 49:28
Okay.
Amanda 49:29
Because let's be real, you have an ex you were previously in love with them. Now the thought of them no longer sends a little jolt of dopamine through your system,
Joanna 49:37
Right
Amanda 49:38
It might send a little jolt of just disgust
Joanna 49:42
Or random depression.
Yes,
Amanda 49:45
Like so circumstances, and personal choices, and decisions of
also thinking of somebody or something in a good light
change
Whether or not it's Yeah, so yeah, those, there are choices. But I hate when people say you don't choose who you fall in love with because you absolutely choose who you fall in love with. You might not choose to be attracted to somebody.
But you choose to go out of your way to engage with someone and to foster emotions and a relationship because if you don't do that, then you're not in love with someone you're just infatuated. And infatuation is not love.
Joanna 50:30
No it's not.
Amanda 50:30
Obsession is not love.
Joanna 50:32
Nope.
But it sure feels like initially, and I blame Disney because we've been all been taught to think that love is all consuming emotion. Don't make the face me. I blame all the Disney movies we watched when we were younger. We all want to be rescued and coddled, and we believe it's an all consuming emotion. But that is neither here nor there.
To wrap things up.
Do we think that
the escalation of the relationship between Villanelle and Eve is going to be based off of the fact that it takes more for Villanelle, quote unquote "capture Eve than that look across the bar," and or the walk from here to there, like the easy way she's captured all these other people to buy her dinner or buy her whatever else or to just wile away her time.
Amanda 51:31
I think it's going to be a part of that. But it's also, I think Eve is someone who is very different than
the people Villanelle is usually
Joanna 51:43
Wasting time with
Amanda 51:44
Yeah,
She's new and not just new, but even the people from her past like her teacher, and the other assassin that she's been with, or is currently with in the book.
Eve has a
Even though she would like that independence and that loss of responsibility that she has in her life. She's still very definitely, at least at this point. And book one has
a strict moral sense.
And it's
not the same as, you know, the random couple on the street who are doing whatever they're doing like you, the good police officer that is Eve I think is part of what is so appealing.
Joanna 52:34
Ahh
The "Can I corrupt Batman Theory"
Amanda 52:38
For now. Yeah.
Joanna 52:40
Thank you for joining us for another episode of literary musings.
As we say, read the book, listen to the podcast, and watch the show in this case. But if you can only do one, listen to the podcast.
Labs DCPL 53:05
You just tuned in to the DC Public Library podcast listening subscribe at DC library.org slash podcast or wherever podcasts are available. Send us your comments at DCPL on Twitter, or follow us at DC public library on Instagram and Facebook. Thank you for listening
Transcribed by https://otter.ai