As part of a month-long celebration of the ADA, Jenny chats with co-creator of the Oscar-nominated Documentary "Crip Camp," Jim LeBrecht, along with activist and author Judy Heumann.
Voiceover #1
DC Public Library Podcast is made possible, in part, by the Institute of Museum and Library Services and is a production of the Labs at DC Public Library.
JENNY
You're listening to the DC Public Library Podcast recorded from the Labs recording studio in the historic modernized Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial Library in downtown Washington, DC. This is "Access This," our series on disability culture and community brought to you by the Center for Accessibility at DCPL. Hello, I'm your host Jenny. And today we're lucky to have some wonderful guests to help us celebrate the 31st anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act, or ADA, which was signed into law on July 26th, 1990.
JENNY
In the early 1970s, teenagers with disabilities faced a future shaped by isolation, discrimination and institutionalization. Camp Jened, at a ramshackle camp just for them in the Catskills exploded those confines. Jened was their free willing utopia, a place with summertime sports, smoking, and makeout sessions awaiting everyone and campers experienced liberation and full inclusion as human beings. The Peabody Award winning and Oscar nominated documentary "Crip Camp" is about reclaiming and celebrating your identity, telling your own story. and discovering the power of community.
JENNY
And today, I am so pleased to be joined on the show today by one of Crip Camp's, co-directors, writers, and a film mixer and former camper, we have Jim LeBrecht, along with Judy Heumann, a disability rights activist, and author who is also featured in the film. So I want to thank you both so much for so for joining us. It's such an honor to have you here for Disability Pride Month as we celebrate the ADA.
Judy Heumann
Thank you for inviting me.
Jim LeBrecht
Great to be here, Jenny.
JENNY
Yeah, thank you both so much. And of course, we also want to shout out your co-director, Nicole Newnham, who isn't joining us today. But we're so grateful for her immeasurable contributions to this film. And I'm sure we'll be discussing her a bit too. But I- just to get us started, Jim, can you talk just a little bit about what the process was like of coming together to create this film? I imagine it was many years in the making.
Jim LeBrecht
Yeah, it was a long journey. Probably about five years really, from an initial conversation with Nicole, up to out- probably five and a half years, until we premiered at Sundance in January of 2020. I, as you mentioned, I'm a sound mixer. I've been mixing predominantly documentaries for well over two decades. And Nicole Newnham was one of my early clients and someone that I'd worked with, for... well at the point we had a very wonderful lunch I had been her, you know, we'd known each other for 15 years. And I had seen the power of documentary film. And I also loved Nicole's work. And, and, and we were friends. And I asked her to go out to lunch with me, because I wanted to pitch her on some ideas of some films around disability that I thought she might be interested in making. And it was really kind of an offhand comment right as we were heading back to the building after lunch, I said, actually, you know, I've always wanted to see a documentary about my summer camp. I think there's a story here about this exodus of people from the New York area to Berkeley, you know, people that all knew each other from Camp Jened and, and this connection to the dis-, disability rights movement. And when I started talking about this summer camp, for folks with disabilities run by hippies in 1971, she became very interested. And then long story short, she said she wanted to work, make the film, but that she wanted me to co-direct and co-produce with her, which I was deeply grateful for.
JENNY
Had you ever co-produced a film before, even a short film? You've been a sound mixer for many, many years. So you're sort of in the field, but that's a very different role.
Jim LeBrecht
Really, nothing worth talking about? [JENNY laughs] Some very, very short things years and years ago, but no, this is really the first time I mean, I never really saw how the sausage was made this intimately, as I did on the film. Usually when it comes to you as a mixer, the film is already, they've settled on the edit. And and you know, they deliver you a locked picture for the most part, and you're just entering the team there. But literally we were "who's going to produce with us, who are we going to bring on?" and, in fact, being in the editing room was something rather foreign to me that I really had to kind of really pick up on.
JENNY
Yeah. And you're watching footage too of yourself as a kid, which, I mean, seeing seeing both of you as young people was so fun, I think, you know, for us-
Judy Heumann
He was really cute then [JENNY and Jim laugh]. He's still cute now, but he was really cute then.
JENNY
The curly hair, right, Judy? [Laughing]
Judy Heumann
I really loved Jimmy when he was in his car, you know, this little car that he drives out of the garage. And when he's flying down the stairs of his parent's house, and when he's getting a cup of water out of the bathtub. I think you know, those initial pieces of Jimmy really allow you to see how he's evolved. Because he was clearly at a very young age fearless. You know, really going down that flight of stairs [JENNY laughs], as he did. You know, I'm sure the first time he did it, his parents might have been like, not saying anything, because they wanted him to do everything. But there had to be a little bit of a gasp, of what was going to happen but it was great.
Jim LeBrecht
We once had some friends, some friends come over from church that we had met and I came barreling down the stairs. So there I am just, I can't feel my legs. So you know, they're kind of bouunding behind me and I kind of came down the stairs to see the Brices, and Mr. Brice thought I was falling down the stairs, and literally, like, lunged at me as if he was trying to catch a football [Laughs].
JENNY
You were like, I'm fine. I know what I'm doing [Laughs].
Jim LeBrecht
Say! Ha.
JENNY
Oh, that must have been quite a sight. I love it. Now Jim, you're you're featured as a camper at Jened in the film. And Judy, as a counselor, how did each of you find the camp initially?
Judy Heumann
Well I think for me, I was a camper for a number of years. And then I hadn'y actually been at camp and then I came back as a counselor. So Jimmy was what 15? And I think I was like 21? I think I already started teaching when this happened. And Jened for me wa,s both as a camper and and as a counselor, you know, a great experience, because it enabled me and everybody else there to be with our peers. And too, the way I think about it, is being in a being in an environment where anything you said was not thrown out the window. Or people listened to what you had to say about what was going on in your life, particularly when we're talking about things like our futures or not being certain about what our futures would be because of lack of role models. And um, I think really, it was very much ,for many of us, you know, a learning environment without any intention. Jened was a great place, but they're really, you know, if Jimmy and I were running a camp today, it would be different in as much as there would be times for people to get together and talk about advocacy. Advocacy was never like, formally discussed, but it happened all the time.
JENNY
Mm hmm
Jim LeBrecht
I uh, [Laughs] I first heard about Camp Jened in the summer of 1969, the summer of Woodstock. And a bunch of campers from Camp Jened were at this other camp that I've been going to called Camp Jawonio which is in Rockland County, just north of New York City. And Camp Jened wasn't happening that summer because they were building a new dining hall- their dining hall had burned down during the winter. And I started hearing about this camp where, you know that you sleep in a bunk not a dorm, the counselors sleep in the bunk with you. There's music playing all the time. And indeed, someone mentioned, you know, you might be able to smoke dope with the counselor [JENNY laughs]. And so at the time, I was 13 and this was all very appealing to me. So, at the end of the summer, I said, "Gee, Dad, you know, I heard about this other camp and I- I don't know, I'd like to give it a try. So in reality, you know, "Crip Camp," the movie really focuses on the summer of '71. I was there for one month in 1970. And boy did I want to go back.
JENNY
And the camp obviously, and this is talked about a lot in the film, how the camp had such an influence on many people's lives, you know, personally, professionally and in the advocacy world. Can you just talk a little bit about that?
Jim LeBrecht
I have to tell you that, you know, what Judy was talking about is that wasn't really intentional. But this is what was happening where we were talking and as a 15 year old... [Sighs] I wouldn't, I didn't spend time with people with other folks with disabilities, I was fortunate that I was going to public school. So here was an environment in which I was around a number of people. But I had elders, I had folks that I was looking to. At the other camp I used to go to there weren't no counselors with disabilities. And here I was, I remember when the bus pulled up into the parking lot the, my first summer, I really couldn't tell who were counselors and who were campers. It was that kind of place. So it was at Camp Jened that that I really learned about respecting other people. taking your time, being patient, but also by meeting Judy. It's that, the course of my life, that I really wanted to do something political as an activist, for folks with disabilities. Because, you know, life was extremely unfair. Life is always unfair for a teenager anyway. But, you know, the obstacles that I was facing, and the dismissal that I was feeling from so many people, and the lack of protection was um, was something I wanted to fight back against.
Judy Heumann
And I think, you know, Jimmy was 15, right? When, when the footage from Jened was taken, and I was 21. I had already had my lawsuit against the Board of Education, and gotten my teaching license. When I was going to camp as a camper, there weren't, there were, I don't even know if there were any disabled people who were in counselor positions, or in management at the camp. But as I was saying earlier, what was powerful about Jened and yes, it was true, you know, I was one of the people that they hired. So that was important, because the other camps, pretty much as a rule didn't have disabled people working there, was that we were also each other's role models. So I think for Jimmy, you know, when I went to camp, and I had already had the lawsuit, started a group called Disabled In Action with friends. And Jimmy, I think, knew about that, at that point. You know, we were looking at each other and learning from each other about what people were doing. And many of the people were doing many different things, as far as advocacy on college campuses, or- and think another point to remember is disabled kids at that point, went to camp way longer than non-disabled people. So you know, if you look at Camp Jened, like other camps, the Junior coun- Junior counselors, or people who worked in the kitchen, they were all younger, but I don't recall people with any visible disabilities, may well have been people with invisible disabilities, but they weren't disclosing. They weren't not disclosing. But things like learning disabilities and stuff like that in '71 really weren't being discussed yet. So I think, you know, people, in many ways, went to Jened and went back to Jened, because we felt we were interested in making change. And I think dynamic change in some way. And we had a lot in common. And so being able to be together for one to two months, because Jened had one in- two one months, and you could go for the whole summer, was really great. Because you really solidified friendships, some of which- I went to public school too, but Jimmy went to public school with non-disabled kids. I went to a public school where the disabled kids all were in special classes in elementary school, and in high school special homerooms. But the last three years of school were fully integrated.
JENNY
Yeah I- I personally, I went to a- I'm part of the disabiliry community as well. And I went to a week long camp from the time that I was, I think 12 until I was 18 for disabled kids. And I related so much to what was described in the film of when you left camp and feeling like you were homesick for that community and those people because, you know, the quote unquote, "real world" wasn't, wasn't quite the same. You know, I didn't also didn't have, you know, a lot of disabled peers or a sense of community like that until much, much later. And I think what's great about the film is that, you know, that community just built and grew, and it leads right into the 504 sit-in, which happened in- was it '76, Judy?
Judy Heumann
'77.
JENNY
'77, yeah. So not too many years after, sort of the main footage of this film. And then, you know, we have the ADA, now, 31 years ago. And obviously, a lot has changed, you know since you were all at camp, but what would you say the ADA, has been successful in doing for people with disabilities and the movement in general? And what, what do you think it has missed 31 years later?
Jim LeBrecht
That's a huge question.
JENNY
It's a big question, yeah [Laughs].
Jim LeBrecht
If I might start off. I mean, I think for me, the signing of the 504 regulations was the first impact I really saw personally. I was a student at UC San Diego. And they started making architectural- they started removing architectural barriers around the campus. And, and yeah, that was the first sign of things kind of getting better. For me with the ADA, you know, I see it around me in public accommodations. You know, when I was a kid, I had to call everywhere to see whether I could get my wheelchair in. And I don't really do that nowadays. I just don't think that I really need to. So I, I see the ADA all around me. I see it in legal protections, but I you know, see it in door handles. I see it in curb cuts. And I see it in real, you know, protections for, for people with disabilities.
Judy Heumann
For me, I think 504 and the ADA, you know, are somewhat generational. In as much as you know, many of the people, you know, who define themselves as being part of the ADA generation are, you know, people 30 and over. And people who were involved with 504 and the ADA, obviously, we're older. I'm 73 and Jimmy, you're how old?
Jim LeBrecht
[clears throat for effect] Sixty-five.
Judy Heumann
Sixty-five. Mumble mumble, 65. So, we've really had, those of us who've been active, really seen significant growth over our lifetime. And while I think we'll talk more, a little bit more about that growth, I think, obviously, neither 504 nor ADA, were ever intended to be the be all and end all of laws. So I think we really need to recognize that we can't blame the ADA for not having home and community based services. Because that's not what its intent is. And that's one issue that many of us are really doing a lot of work on, the ability to have funding to be able to hire personal assistants as examples. But when you look at what Jimmy was discussing, for example, what do we see with the ADA? I mean, we see things like captioning, audio description, um companies, not necessarily coming forward and saying, "Yeah, I know this is the right thing to do." But ultimately, more and more are doing it the right way. We see issues in technology in the ADA. As you said, ADA was signed in 1990 technology at that point, that computer and the internet, social media that was all just beginning. And so you know, there's work that continues to be done to make sure that the ADA and where necessary other forms of legislation may be needed to be able to ensure the full complement of what ADA was supposed to be doing.
Judy Heumann
I think one of the issues with ADA and 504, is that many people don't know what it is. They may have heard of it, they may have a broad understanding of it. But there is not a set of regular trainings that are going on to allow people to know, what does 504 and what does ADA describe as discrimination? What are remedies? What can you do about it? So, I believe it's something that we need to be doing a lot more work on is making sure that people on a regular basis are being informed of what these laws are. I think certainly with ADA and 504, and 501, and 503. And those are two other very important provisions. So 504, sorry, 501, addresses the federal government, and what the federal government's obligations are in the area of employment. Uh 503, which addresses the issue of contractors, so entities that have contracts with the federal government, have a legal obligation as a result of their contract, to be hiring, at least up to 7% of their staff as individuals who have disabilities. And it's administered by the Department of Labor. I think, you know, we've seen the Department of Labor, the Department of Justice, Education, HUD, and others who have been involved in enforcement of these laws, which is very important, and I think it is stronger under some administration than others.
Judy Heumann
But I think these laws are making, they're making a difference, both in day-to-day reality where you can see it and touch it. But it, but these laws also, for those people who understand them, raises expectations. And I think the more people whose expectations are raised, those people also work with other people, disabled and non-disabled people. And I think, you know, another very important issue is, slowly we're seeing more businesses, for example, who are beginning to understand that DEI must include disabled people. I think we're still at the edge of the table. We're not central to the table, like other groups are, but at least I think we are not falling off the table. We're just notyet as central at the table as we need to be.
JENNY
Mm hmm. And you're referring to diversity and inclusion initiatives?
Judy Heumann
Yes.
JENNY
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I think, um, because of course, disability, and it intersects with all of those other communities, too, right? We see disability in every community. Can you talk about the importance of diversity that can be found in the disability community and the influence that the Civil Rights movement had on leaders of the Disability Rights movement? In your experience?
Judy Heumann
Yeah, so the Civil Rights movement, the Women's movement, the Anti-war movement, the Aging movement, all of which was emerging more and more, in the 50s and 60s, definitely was influential in the disability community. I think one of the issues in the disability community that we're always dealing with is so many disabled people, like you were saying earlier, Jenny, haven't known other disabled people. So forming alliances amongst ourselves, to see ourselves as a movement, then I think the strength of what's been going on over the last 30 to 50 years, is the growth of the diversity in the disability community, both by race and gender, sexual orientation, and disability. You know, we're very unique, because we have so many different types of disabilities. So I think we've seen some very exciting work. And "Crip Camp," I think really, through the leadership of Jimmy and Nicole, when setting up the impact campaign, really saw the film as an opportunity to expand not only the viewers, the viewership for the film, but also to be an activist arm. You want to talk more about that, Jimmy?
Jim LeBrecht
Sure. You know one of the things that I was aware of, and then Nicole and I embraced, was this feeling among many people in the disabled community that the contributions of people who have been marginalized had not really you know, their contributions really had not been told very well, or very thoroughly. And that we really wanted to do what we could to make sure that we were highlighting the the work of people of color and LGBTQ folks. And so when we wound up engaging people to run our impact campaign, we found two incredible folks from the Disability Justice Movement. And that was Stacey Park Milburne and Andraéa LaVant. And they wound up designing a campaign that was actually, honestly really considered one of the best for a documentary. And originally, we thought we'd have some in-person meetings with younger activists, and you know, some of the old guard, and then the pandemic hit, and everything shut down, and they pivoted. And last summer, we had the 16 week, virtual Crip Camp, where we had people come in and talk about things like disability black history, about sexuality, about, you know, self care, many, many different things. And, you know, our thought was that maybe we'd get about 500 people to sign up to check, check out our summer camps. And by the end of the summer, we had 10,000 people from 50 countries registered to either see the videos later or to view it live. And uh, it was quite, quite extraordinary.
JENNY
That's amazing, yeah. And obviously, releasing a film, you know, you premiered at Sundance, right before the pandemic, I believe the film was supposed to have a theatrical release initially, right? And then it gets released on Netflix. And I mean, I know tons of people who watched it, because we were all at home, isolated, and you're watching this amazing film about community and about disability culture. And so for some people learning about it, for the first time was that was that kind of an unexpected benefit to this sort of? I mean, obviously, you want your film shown in theaters, you want everyone to see it, but it's sort of sort of the perfect, you know, accessible film.
Jim LeBrecht
Well, we didn't have to worry about how many wheelchair seating positions that were in theaters. Yeah, that was, you know, at Sundance, we had a patron that helped pay for a bunch of the people that were on the film, many of which were wheelchair users, and Sundance was freaking awesome. And we won, we were the opening night film. And they removed a number of seats in the Eccles theater, which is a huge theater. So that our entourage, like any other film group, could all sit together. And, and that we had enough spaces. So the film was, you know, entered the world in I think, was March 23. And there was, was to be a theatrical release. And and I do think that there was a silver lining that, you know, the film was accessible to people. And that, and for a lot of, you know, what we were hearing, Nicole and I were hearing was that, you know, this is actually an incredible blueprint for activism. And that activist should look at this. You know, we heard that the protesters up in Portland showed the film one night outside. And so, anyway, I don't think anybody wanted to go through what we've all gone through. And the tragedy involved with it, but it made it easier for Nicole and I, to participate in a lot of different Q&As. Because the expectation wasn't that we had to fly there, or go there. So it was a you know, that was a blessing. I have to say that. In Sundance, it was late January of 2020. And we went to New York, and we were in Columbia, Missouri, and we're about to go to Europe, and we didn't go to Europe. But when I got home, I probably slept for a week straight.
JENNY
Yeah.
Jim LeBrecht
It was pretty arduous.
JENNY
I bet, that's a lot.
Judy Heumann
And I think Sundance was really amazing and for the audience to understand, Jimmy was there for what? 10 days?
Jim LeBrecht
Yeah.
Judy Heumann
And they showed the film. How many times, 12 times while you were there?
Jim LeBrecht
Yeah, it was remarkable. They, their screens that were added.
Judy Heumann
And I was there for three and a half days. And I think the film was shown like six or seven times,
JENNY
Wow.
Judy Heumann
-while I was there. And so there were 1000s of people who saw the film. And each, at least it all the sessions I was at, I presume all of them. It wasn't just a showing of the film. But there was also discussion around the film. So that was, I think, very powerful because if I could summarize what the most common comment was, and that is: why didn't we know this story? And I would say, it still is the most common comment. The other day, I gave my book "Being Heumann," to a friend who's like, 22 now and I met her when she was like, 10, she was volunteering at a farmers market. And when she read the book, and the book and the film and other books that are out, you know, they have similar themes, the voices of disabled people. And what she said to me is, why didn't we know the story? Why is this not being taught in schools? And that's definitely one of the major things that's coming out of "Crip Camp," also, younger people are seeing, and we're asking the question, Why is this not a part of what we're learning in school? And I think that's very important. It's obviously important that the adults are saying it. But my retort to adults at Sundance was, you're all documentary filmmakers, you tell me why the story hasn't been told. Because the story, you know, the way we've talked about it beyond "Crip Camp," it's basically the absence of the inclusion of disability in filmmaking. And that's something else I think Jimmy can talk about, because he's been very instrumental in setting up- Well, I would say a couple things, one, the work that he's been doing over the number, last number of years, in really advancing the knowledge that there is an absence of disability, including disabled people, and then the FWD-Doc that you've been setting up. Do you want to talk about that at all?
Jim LeBrecht
Sure. Well, I mean, I think that what "Crip Camp" showed the, the entertainment industry, was that with any other community, like any other community, authenticity is very important. But no one was asking us, no one thought that there were stories like this there. You know, we've been stuck with this, these old tropes, what, you know, Nicole calls these kind of "ruts in the road" of tragedy and or, you know, heroic overcoming of adversity. And so I, you know, we, we knew that there were great stories out here, but we weren't being asked. So we've, you know, a number of people with disabilities in the entertainment industry have been working hard to, you know, knock down the closed doors and to get at that table. One of the things I have been involved with, as Judy mentioned, is something called FWD-Doc, which stands for Filmmakers With Disabilities, dash Doc. And we had this incredible kind of convening at the International Documentary Association Getting Geal conference in 2018 in Los Angeles. And there was a panel on uh, disabled documentary filmmakers. And afterwards, we had a convening and out of there, a group of us decided that we needed an organization for our community. And it's modeled on other groups like the Brown, Brown Girls Doc Mafia, and, and such, and it's been really quite the experience. And there's other organizations right now that are working really hard to enlighten studios and agencies. And streamers.
JENNY
Mm hmm, yeah.
Judy Heumann
There's a group called the Disability Media Alliance Project, which is out of DREDF. And I think, you know, a gorup that's being formed of disabled journalists, and One in Four, which is I think the organization that Jimmy is also talking about, that's been working with major companies in LA and other places. But the bottom line is, I think there are many disabled people who are professionals in these industries, who are finally recognizing that like other groups, women, black people, brown people, etc, there is a need to come together. Because people have been experiencing negative and positive things individually, and the ability that come together to really just like at Jened, just like when we had our beginning discussions. What was one of the values of Jened, it was coming together to be able to talk and without an agenda, per se. So these groups now have agendas, because they're focusing around various components of entertainment, bringing people together, creating agendas, going into companies, and I think in many ways, you know, can talk now about "Crip Camp" as an example of how many people have seen this film, and where there is an interest. So Jimmy was also involved in consulting on the new Pitts, Pitts-
Jim LeBrecht
Pixar.
Judy Heumann
Pixar, oh my god, Pixar film called "Luca," which I really encourage people to watch. It's a very interesting and enjoyable piece of animation. And I, there's an article that includes Jimmy in regarding the advice that he had given to Pixar in the New York Times. And I think we're seeing more and more of these examples. The fact that we can still count them is a problem. But I am hoping that over the next year, two years, we can't count them anymore. But I think, you know, there is a very strong effort. "Crip Camp: definitely has opened people's eyes and many other things are doing the same thing or similar. But I think it'd be interesting to the audience, Jimmy, could you tell people about how footage of Camp Jened was found?
Jim LeBrecht
Oh, wow. Well, yeah the black and white footage. There was a group called the People's Video Theater. They were based in New York, and they were taking this new technology of black and white portable video, really wanting to use it as a- provided as a tool for marginalized communities. They had bumped into some a van of campers and counselors at a gas station near Camp Jened, and kind of like, Who are you? Who are you? And, and they were invited over to film our Camp Olympics. And when they showed up? Well, two counselors, they gotten the crabs [JENNY laughs] and the whole camp was completely kitty wampus all over the place.
JENNY
That whole section of the film just makes a crack up [Laughs].
Jim LeBrecht
Well, you know, and the fact of matter is, I had this memory of these people showing up and I remember that the word "People" was in their name, and that they had actually given me the camera one day to do a tour. And when I told that to Nicole, she was like, "You shot footage back in '71?" And but-
JENNY
But you didn't know, she didn't know that there was footage when you initially talked about this project?
Jim LeBrecht
Well we didn't know if it survived.
JENNY
Right.
Jim LeBrecht
I had this vague memory. Literally over the course of three months, she doggedly went on the internet every night, and eventually um-
Judy Heumann
Found it in a magazine.
Jim LeBrecht
There was a video magazine from back in the day that got digitized. And she saw an ad in the back that said, "Camp Jened for the handicap, Crab epidemic, $6.95, People's Video Theater." At which point then we had the name of a group. Long story short, we wound up getting in contact with Howard Gutstadt, who in fact lived in San Francisco right across the Bay from us. And, and indeed, they still had five and a half hours worth of this footage that they were getting digitized. We, Nicole and I and Howard met at a restaurant in San Francisco. And we both kind of like had this real emotional meeting and we were able to help finish paying for the digitizing of their tapes and license the use of their material. And it was like- Nicole and I were planning on trying to do recreations, hire disabled actors, find a camp somewhere.
JENNY
Yeah, it's I mean, it's incredible that it survived from like a preservation standpoint, like you're one, you know, basement flood away from losing all of that footage.
Judy Heumann
The film also had been moved around what 18 times, Jimmy?
JENNY
Oh wow.
Jim LeBrecht
Well, 17 times. Ben Levine, one of the other people we've been dealing with for the People's Video Theater literally had moved their tapes 17 times over the course of 45 years.
JENNY
Oh my goodness.
Jim LeBrecht
Amazing, Amazing. Yeah, it was extrao- I mean, Judy, what was it like for you seeing this footage? Because one of the first shoots we had was with you in DC?
Judy Heumann
Well, I'd actually seen footage of me younger in other films. So it wasn't- "America '73 "was another one. Um, a couple of others. But at any rate, um, you know, I laughed, I thought the first opening scene, both about the crabs, you know, when I was going to have to go shower somebody, and then the making of the lasagna versus veal parmesan. That really, for me was very funny. And it's like, I think everybody when you look at yourself, so many years later, it's like, Oh my God. But, um, it was, you know, I think the footage is so powerful, because it wasn't scripted. You know, it just is. And I think that's really the power. I don'r know, Jimmy, that roundtable discussion. Was that something that was set up to be filmed? Do you remember?
Jim LeBrecht
Yeah, I do. Um, you know, Howard, in one of the scenes you see in the film, Howard Gutstadt said, you know, help us make a video about your camp. And we came back to him and said, We'd like to deliver a message to our parents. And so we wound up setting up outside around a table. And, and they filmed it. And Nicole and I, when we were looking at the footage for the first time, when we came up upon this moment, we just like stopped- our jaws were just dropped because there's an incredible moment where one of the campers, Nancy Rosenbloom, who has disability affected speech, is talking about her experience. And for most of us, it was really hard to understand what she was saying. But we were all patient. And then at the end of it...Steve Hoffman, who you all are going to school together, Judy, right?
Judy Heumann
Nancy and Steve and I went to school together.
Jim LeBrecht
Yeah. And Steve said, I think I know what Nancy's talking about. And said, what she is saying is that she doesn't have the right to privacy. Because, you know, her mother's there all the time. And, and, and Nicole, and I just simply said, lovely, you know, if the phone can lead up to this moment, near the end of the summer camp session, we accomplish something really remarkable.
Judy Heumann
And I think that particular part, I remember, I was getting off a train, I live in DC. Uh Jimmy lives in Oakland, California. I was getting off the train at Connecticut Avenue. And this man came over to me and said, were you at Sundance? And he knew I was at Sundance, but he was just like trying to break the ice to say that. And I said, so what did you like about the film? And he said, the most powerful part of this film was realizing that people didn't necessarily have their own private space. And for him as an individual, that was the most compelling. Now, would he have gotten up and said that in a group of 1000 people, probably not, but I think I presume this is very true for you, Jimmy, that people will say things to you about the film, and what it meant to them and what it evoked in them in a more private way, than necessarily in a public way.
Jim LeBrecht
Oh, that's true. God. I've heard from so many people, and it's sometimes hard to kind of get back to folks, but you know, there. I felt like I was willing to really reveal very personal things about myself. Because I felt like the film was gonna do a lot of good in the world, and that it was important for people to really understand as best as we are able to disability experience.
Judy Heumann
I mean, for me, one of the important parts of this film is it's the first film that Jimmy was making around disability. And so, you know, as Jimmy was saying, in the beginning, he went to school with non-disabled kids, he went to camps with disabled kids, and he certainly was aligned with the disability movement. But for me, this film really is very important because he, as a-co director, was obviously very significantly involved in the design of the film. And I think that's one issue that Nicole and he talked about the value of having a disabled and non-disabled person together in designing, producing, directing, you know, this film, I know, that's not the label of producer, whatever that means. But nonetheless, that's what they were doing.
Jim LeBrecht
And it's so happens my wife, Sarah was also a producer of the film. And, you know, her contribution was, you know, make or break. And we had some great executive producer Howard Gertler, but the most remarkable thing was that Higher Ground- President and Mrs. Obama's production company, and their arrangement, with Netflix. When they came on board and supported the film, we we didn't have a cut yet. I mean, we were basically in an assembly, when we knew that, we were going to have incredible visibility, and that we were not going to be lost in the shuffle, by any means. So I mean, you know, the contributions of other people really supporting and the community in the Jened community is essential.
Judy Heumann
There's been a community that's continued, even after the camp closed. And so I think the film has also been a gathering place, you know, because it gave the Jenedians, you know, another opportunity to participate, to you know, share information on when it was coming out. And a number of the people who are not in the film, but who are from Jened came out to Sundance to see the film. And then when we were at the Academy's, they came out also to be able to show support. So I think that's all been very valuable. And I think also, at the end of the day, it really demonstrates the importance of taking footage. Because there were many other camps around the country. And I'm sure many of the stories were very similar. Regarding the experiences of disabled people, I went to a camp when I was younger, Camp Oakhurat. And like, from nine to 12 years old, and it was very similar. But what makes Jened different, in part is the footage. And I think the fact that the company, and Jimmy and others came together and said, let's have this discussion. I mean, that discussion around parents was really, I think, a complete model and demonstrates how you say to this group of young people, we want to do a video, decide what you want to do, what message you want to give. And young people decide they want to give a message to their parents, whether or not their parents ever saw it? I don't think so. But except now they have.
Jim LeBrecht
But, but I have to say that we, especially at that time, never really had anybody given us that kind of agency.
Judy Heumann
Right! Exactly.
Jim LeBrecht
Kind of invitation to say what's on your mind. So, and when I look back at that footage, and really started to realize what was happening, that was one of the things that was stunning to me. They did you know, they could have come into that camp and asked the camp director, how are you taking care of these poor, you know, crippled kids. And no man, they were like, you know, A: that wasn't gonna happen, you know, with Larry but but he it was who these people were. And I'm, I think we're all very grateful for the way that they filmed and and where their heart was.
JENNY
Well, I'm, I'm very grateful for that. And I'm grateful to the two of you and the whole "Crip Camp" team. I know, you have to get going. But I just want to say how meaningful this film is to so many people and to me- I'll speak for myself very meaningful to me personally. And if you haven't seen it, or maybe it's been a year since you watched it, you can stream it on Netflix. And yeah, I just want to thank you both so much for this wonderful piece of disability history.
Judy Heumann
Thank you so much, Jenny for doing this.
Jim LeBrecht
Thank you Jenny
Judy Heumann
-and the DC Libraries.
JENNY
Thank you.
JENNY
You just listened to "Access This" on the DC Public Library Podcast recorded from the Labs recording studio in the historic modernized Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial Library in downtown Washington, DC. You can reach out to the Center for accessibility at DCPL by emailing DCPLaccess@DC.gov. Stay safe and stay accessible.
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